Eric Jones Woofer Problem and Possible Solutions
Topic: Acoustic reproduction of percussion...
Posted By: Roman Bednarek <roman@twcny.rr.com>
Date: Thursday, 25 October 2007, at 6:32 p.m.
Speakers are known to fall short when it comes to reproducing percussive instruments like drums and pianos. There is a lack of realism and dynamics.
I'm wondering what shortcomings of the drivers and speaker systems in general that contribute to this. I suspect that some has to do with transients and if this is the case, are transient perfect designs more successful at reproducing these types of sounds? What type of driver or speaker would be best in this case?
I just thought that I would start a topic in this direction and see where it goes. Please contribute.
Re: Topic: Acoustic reproduction of percussion...
Posted By: �
Date: Thursday, 25 October 2007, at 6:40 p.m.
In Response To: Topic: Acoustic reproduction of percussion... (Roman Bednarek)
> There is a lack of
> realism and dynamics.
Because of having only flat on axis response, but poor off axis (power) response.
If you had a live band in your living room, the percussion could be heard in practically every room throughout the rest of your house. We build loudspeakers that beam all the high frequencies straight ahead. If you ever have the chance to listen to a pair of omni directional loudspeakers while outside the "sweet spot" you will notice quite a difference.
Surface area . . .
Posted By: Pete Schumacher � <pete_schumacher@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, 25 October 2007, at 6:57 p.m.
In Response To: Topic: Acoustic reproduction of percussion... (Roman Bednarek)
> Speakers are known to fall short when it
> comes to reproducing percussive instruments
> like drums and pianos. There is a lack of
> realism and dynamics.
> I'm wondering what shortcomings of the
> drivers and speaker systems in general that
> contribute to this. I suspect that some has
> to do with transients and if this is the
> case, are transient perfect designs more
> successful at reproducing these types of
> sounds? What type of driver or speaker would
> be best in this case?
> I just thought that I would start a topic in
> this direction and see where it goes. Please
> contribute.
I've found (and I know Rudy Jakubin would concur) that percussion sounds quite visceral as you add more woofers to the mix. Going from a single pair of DA175 to a pair of quad DA175 mini arrays transformed drum sounds from OK to !THERE! in my living room. And depending on the recording, piano can come through to the point of creating that resonant feel that only close proximity to a piano can produce. I know that my other 7" two ways, TM or MTM, just don't quite keep up. It's really in that bass/mid-bass area that the arrays excel and add a certain realism to percussion, especially drums.
But I do understand the "attack" of the piano key on string is quite demanding from a dynamic range point of view, at least as demanding on the amp as the speakers. Do transient perfect designs sound different? That would be an interesting investigation. But I've heard a number of very good non TP systems that had no problems with transients and sounded quite natural. But without exception, the larger ones were required to make a drum really sound like a drum.
Re: Topic: Acoustic reproduction of percussion...
Posted By: J Kim <kim_woojae@hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, 25 October 2007, at 7:09 p.m.
In Response To: Topic: Acoustic reproduction of percussion... (Roman Bednarek)
Not about speakers. But I think limited dynamics we hear from speakers are also related to recordings. I don't have good knowledge about recording. I heard that CD's 16 bit PCM technology has sufficient potential for reproducing realistic dynamics. But also heard that in most cases recording engineers do not use it to its full potential. Some people think that SACD or DVD-A is an overkill. Theoretically, it may be. But I do hear much more, and often times incredible realism from some of SACDs and DVD-As I own.
Just my thought.
-jAy
Re: Topic: Acoustic reproduction of percussion...
Posted By: Bill Fitzmaurice
Date: Thursday, 25 October 2007, at 7:19 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Topic: Acoustic reproduction of percussion... (J Kim)
> But I think limited
> dynamics we hear from speakers are also
> related to recordings.
True. Recordings are highly compressed, and the instruments that are compressed the most are those with the widest dynamic range, ie., those with a percussive attack. Speakers capable of extreme dynamic range help. That pretty much means horns and line arrays.
Woofer
Posted By: Eric Jones <ericjoffroad@sbcglobal.net>
Date:
Can you help me? I am trying to get some base out of my home system. I have 2 high end JBL's but they only have 6 1/2" woofers. I have tried various powered sub but they always have more of a low vibrating hum to them. I want something with a low heavy and punchy sound, without the funky vibrating sound. I hope that makes sense. Should I just use regular woofers with not so low of a crossover?
Re: Woofer
Posted By: Nick29498141
Date:
In Response To: Woofer (Eric Jones)
Can you give us your system details?
Speaker Name/ model #
Amp/Receiver
Sources
Music preference?
Room dimensions
Thanks
NK
Re: Woofer
Posted By: Eric Jones <ericjoffroad@sbcglobal.net>
Date:
In Response To: Re: Woofer (Nick29498141)
> Can you give us your system details?
> Speaker Name/ model #
> Amp/Receiver
> Sources
> Music preference?
> Room dimensions
> Thanks
> NK
I have a high end HK preamp tuner
A Carver 400w amp
2 Jbl L6 towers, with 6 1/2" speakers for the biggest
2 bookshelf Jbl's
I am trying a 10" yamaha powered sub currently and hate it, there is no
punch to it?
My room is 24' by 20' or so, avg liv rm.
I like rock music kinda loud with good base
I tried hooking up to 12" phosgate p2 12" car subs with an amp, but they
needed a lot more than 400 watts and still weren't punchy
I used to run 2 reg good quality home speakers with the same HK and Carver
amp, they had 12" in them and had nice base, but they wore out along time
ago
Thank's
Eric
Re: Woofer
Posted By: chrisn <cdnarkiewicz@msn.com>
Date:
In Response To: Re: Woofer (Eric Jones)
> I have a high end HK preamp tuner
> A Carver 400w amp
> 2 Jbl L6 towers, with 6 1/2" speakers
> for the biggest
> 2 bookshelf Jbl's
> I am trying a 10" yamaha powered sub
> currently and hate it, there is no
> punch to it?
> My room is 24' by 20' or so, avg liv rm.
> I like rock music kinda loud with good base
> I tried hooking up to 12" phosgate p2
> 12" car subs with an amp, but they
> needed a lot more than 400 watts and still
> weren't punchy
> I used to run 2 reg good quality home
> speakers with the same HK and Carver
> amp, they had 12" in them and had nice
> base, but they wore out along time
> ago
> Thank's
> Eric
Car subs make use of the cars cabin gain so the cabinet and tuning aren't ideal in a larger room. For loud music in a room that size you need a larger sub or possibly 2 subs. I like the Dayton RSS315HF, one or two of these and a decent amp should be good for your room, depending on how loud you consider loud:)
HTH
Re: Woofer
Posted By: chris roemer <cjroemer@netzero.com>
Date:
In Response To: Woofer (Eric Jones)
> Can you help me? I am trying to get some
> base out of my home system. Are you looking to build something? What do you want to know exactly? Most likely your 10" sub isn't doing a strong 30 Hz. Your $300? mains are only rated down to the mid 50s.
punch isn't a bass issue per se
Posted By: Mantak
Date:
In Response To: Woofer (Eric Jones)
Punchy doesn't involve your bASS. Its usually a bump at 200hz or 5Khz. Its usually a midrange issue backed up by the bass. See below:
Speaker Tone Words:
Airy: Spacious. Open. Instruments sound like they are surrounded by a large reflective space full of air. Good reproduction of high-frequency reflections. High-frequency response extends to 15 or 20 kHz.
Bassy: Emphasized low frequencies below about 200 Hz. Blanketed: Weak highs, as if a blanket were put over the speakers.
Bloated: Excessive mid-bass around 250 Hz. Poorly damped low frequencies, low-frequency resonances. See tubby.
Blurred: Poor transient response. Vague stereo imaging, not focused.
Boomy: Excessive bass around 125 Hz. Poorly damped low frequencies or low-frequency resonances.
Boxy: Having resonances as if the music were enclosed in a box. Sometimes an emphasis around 250 to 500 Hz.
Breathy: Audible breath sounds in woodwinds and reeds such as flute or sax. Good response in the upper-mids or highs.
Bright: High-frequency emphasis. Harmonics are strong relative to fundamentals.
Chesty: The vocalist sounds like their chest is too big. A bump in the low-frequency response around 125 to 250 Hz.
Clear: See Transparent.
Colored: Having timbres that are not true to life. Non-flat response, peaks or dips.
Crisp: Extended high-frequency response, especially with cymbals. Dark: Opposite of bright. Weak high frequencies.
Delicate: High frequencies extending to 15 or 20 kHz without peaks.
Depth: A sense of distance (near to far) of different instruments.
Detailed: Easy to hear tiny details in the music; articulate. Adequate high-frequency response, sharp transient response.
Dull: See dark.
Edgy: Too much high frequencies. Trebly. Harmonics are too strong relative to the fundamentals. Distorted, having unwanted harmonics that add an edge or raspiness.
Fat: See Full and Warm. Or, spatially diffuse - a sound is panned to one channel, delayed, and then the delayed sound is panned to the other channel. Or, slightly distorted with analog tape distortion or tube distortion.
Full: Strong fundamentals relative to harmonics. Good low-frequency response, not necessarily extended, but with adequate level around 100 to 300 Hz. Male voices are full around 125 Hz; female voices and violins are full around 250 Hz; sax is full around 250 to 400 Hz. Opposite of thin.
Gentle: Opposite of edgy. The harmonics - highs and upper mids - are not exaggerated, or may even be weak.
Grainy: The music sounds like it is segmented into little grains, rather than flowing in one continuous piece. Not liquid or fluid. Suffering from harmonic or I.M. distortion. Some early A/D converters sounded grainy, as do current ones of inferior design. Powdery is finer than grainy.
Grungy: Lots of harmonic or I.M. distortion.
Hard: Too much upper midrange, usually around 3 kHz. Or, good transient response, as if the sound is hitting you hard.
Harsh: Too much upper midrange. Peaks in the frequency response between 2 and 6 kHz. Or, excessive phase shift in a digital recorder's lowpass filter.
Honky: Like cupping your hands around your mouth. A bump in the response around 500 to 700 Hz.
Mellow: Reduced high frequencies, not edgy.
Muddy: Not clear. Weak harmonics, smeared time response, I.M. distortion.
Muffled: Sounds like it is covered with a blanket. Weak highs or weak upper mids.
Nasal: Honky, a bump in the response around 600 Hz. Piercing: Strident, hard on the ears, screechy. Having sharp, narrow peaks in the response around 3 to 10 kHz.
Presence: A sense that the instrument in present in the listening room. Synonyms are edge, punch, detail, closeness and clarity. Adequate or emphasized response around 5 kHz for most instruments, or around 2 to 5 kHz for kick drum and bass.
Puffy: A bump in the response around 500 Hz.
Punchy: Good reproduction of dynamics. Good transient response, with strong impact. Sometimes a bump around 5 kHz or 200 Hz.
Rich: See Full. Also, having euphonic distortion made of even-order harmonics.
Round: High-frequency rolloff or dip. Not edgy.
Sibilant: "Essy" Exaggerated "s" and "sh" sounds in singing, caused by a rise in the around 6 to 10 kHz.
Sizzly: See Sibilant. Also, too much highs on cymbals.
Smeared: Lacking detail. Poor transient response, too much leakage between microphones. Poorly focused images.
Smooth: Easy on the ears, not harsh. Flat frequency response, especially in the midrange. Lack of peaks and dips in the response.
Spacious: Conveying a sense of space, ambiance, or room around the instruments. Stereo reverb. Early reflections.
Steely: Emphasized upper mids around 3 to 6 kHz. Peaky, nonflat high-frequency response. See Harsh, Edgy.
Strident: See Harsh, Edgy.
Sweet: Not strident or piercing. Delicate. Flat high-frequency response, low distortion. Lack of peaks in the response. Highs are extended to 15 or 20 kHz, but they are not bumped up. Often used when referring to cymbals, percussion, strings, and sibilant sounds.
Telephone-like: See Tinny.
Thin: Fundamentals are weak relative to harmonics.
Tight: Good low-frequency transient response and detail.
Tinny: Narrowband, weak lows, peaky mids. The music sounds like it is coming through a telephone or tin can.
Transparent: Easy to hear into the music, detailed, clear, not muddy. Wide flat frequency response, sharp time response, very low distortion and noise.
Tubby: Having low-frequency resonances as if you're singing in a bathtub. See bloated.
Veiled: Like a silk veil is over the speakers. Slight noise or distortion or slightly weak high frequencies. Not transparent.
Warm: Good bass, adequate low frequencies, adequate fundamentals relative to harmonics. Not thin. Also excessive bass or midbass. Also, pleasantly spacious, with adequate reverberation at low frequencies. Also see Rich, Round. Warm highs means sweet highs.
Re: punch isn't a bass issue per se
Posted By: Mantak
Date:
In Response To: punch isn't a bass issue per se (Mantak)
Note that transient response is part of it. Transient response is often hard to put clearly into words. Your amp may not be able to deal with the issues. If the amp is having trouble dealing with the under 50hz bass responses, then sound energy for the midrange punch may be missing. Your speaker sensitivity is also in the mix in my opinion.
Its much easier to get the required punch from a multi-amped electronic crossed system than it is from a passive crossed single amp system in my opinion, having listened to both on the same set of speakers(I listened and later disconnected the passive crossover and substituted and a pre amp and three separate amps and an electronic crossover. "Punch" was dramatically different.
But punch is in the eye of the beholder to some extent.
Mantak Keays
Re: punch isn't a bass issue per se
Posted By: Rudy Jakubin ¿½ <rjakubin@yahoo.com>
Date:
In Response To: Re: punch isn't a bass issue per se (Mantak)
> Note that transient response is part of it.
I think he might be after chest resonance. That slam in the chest & gut. It's usually around 80 hz with it's associated harmonics. i.e. 160, 320, 640 etc.
The quad DA175's provide this punch very well.
The quad RS180's I have playing now provide that vibration he is referring to but do it very cleanly.
A whole different experience.
Re: Woofer
Posted By: DarrenK <darren_kuzma@hotmail.com>
Date:
In Response To: Woofer (Eric Jones)
From my experience, "punch" when talking about bass response is almost always talking about output in the 60 - 80 Hz range, as Rudy pointed out. I would contend that it is in this 60 Hz sense that most people use the term "punch".(sometimes you hear "slam" too)
Either way, it is indeed very difficult to get this "punch" out of a normal home theater sub, especially in a setup like you have. You need to be able to move significant amounts of air at 60 - 80 Hz, which neither of your current speakers or sub can do. Most likely your current sub is totally clipping the amp or operating in high distortion most of the time, which gives it an even more muddy, vibratey sort of sound. You've got a big room to deal with!
You can try a sub with a higher crossover point, but you're still limited in surface area, and it'll hard to get the sub to blend with the mains.
You can try, and I hope it works, but I'm afraid any sub isn't going to give you that "slam" that you may be looking for. Some mains with dual 10's or dual 12's might do the trick!!!
Good luck!
Darren
Re: Woofer
Posted By: Eric Jones <ericjoffroad@sbcglobal.net>
Date:
In Response To: Re: Woofer (cj)
> "Mains" are your primary (main)
> left and right front speakers.
So if I were to get a pair of these Dayton RSS315HF, and then an amp(which one?)this would do it?
Re: Woofer
Posted By: chrisn <cdnarkiewicz@msn.com>
Date:
In Response To: Re: Woofer (Eric Jones)
> So if I were to get a pair of these
> RSS315HF, and then an amp(which one?)this
> would do it?
Any of the larger
Here are some mains from the project showcase that should work good in a large room: http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=MagnaCumLaude
RS1200 from the project showcase: http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Rs1200
Regards:)
Re: Woofer you need more subs. *link*
Posted By: philip ARCARIO <philipARCARIO@YAHOO.COM>
Date:
In Response To: Re: Woofer (DarrenK)
> From my experience, "punch" when
> talking about bass response is almost always
> talking about output in the 60 - 80 Hz
> range, as Rudy pointed out. I would contend
> that it is in this 60 Hz sense that most
> people use the term
> "punch".(sometimes you hear
> "slam" too)
> Either way, it is indeed very difficult to
> get this "punch" out of a normal
> home theater sub, especially in a setup like
> you have. You need to be able to move
> significant amounts of air at 60 - 80 Hz,
> which neither of your current speakers or
> sub can do. Most likely your current sub is
> totally clipping the amp or operating in
> high distortion most of the time, which
> gives it an even more muddy, vibratey sort
> of sound. You've got a big room to deal
> with!
> You can try a sub with a higher crossover
> point, but you're still limited in surface
> area, and it'll hard to get the sub to blend
> with the mains.
> You can try, and I hope it works, but I'm
> afraid any sub isn't going to give you that
> "slam" that you may be looking
> for. Some mains with dual 10's or dual 12's
> might do the trick!!!
> Good luck!
> Darren
my home theater is 24 by 12 by 8. I have three subs. a pair of nht's 1259 12inch. they act as speaker stands for my mains. I run them from 50hz to 80hz just ot get that punch. and 1 15 inch
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-635
Re: Woofer
Posted By: Scholl
Date:
In Response To: Woofer (Eric Jones)
> Can you help me? I am trying to get some
> base out of my home system. I have 2 high
> end jbl's but they only have 6 1/2"
> woofers. I have tried vaius powered sub but
> they always have more of a low vibrating hum
> to them. I want something with a low heavy
> and punchy sound, without the funky
> vibrating sound. I hope that makes sense.
> Should I just use regular woofers with not
> so low of a crossover?
Hi Eric,
Over the years I've tried a lot of different speakers and found the starting point for solid bass with good hit (punch) is a 15" woofer in 3.5 or larger box. The sens should be 95DB or higher. 86DB 6 and 8" woofers have nice mids but just don't cut it for hit.
I've used JBL 2226H and B&C prosounds but found them to be too stiff and needed some power to open up. That's because they are designed to be used in small boxes with big amplifiers. For home use they needed to be played too loud.
I started working with 15"ers for home use and found the 15 from the Pioneer CS99A and Cerwin Vega S2 to be a better match to smaller rooms and lower power. Keep in mind these are 10 times more efficient then many home hifi speakers and 10 watts is very loud. This lead me to a beleive that there maybe a trend with 15s with higher Vas low Fs sounding better at low power than 15s with tight suspensions, small Vas and 35-45hz Vas. The high Vas 15s might not need the power to overcome the suspension stiffness low Vas 15s do.
Anyway, a good combo would be the Altec 416-8c from GreatPlains audio, the Audax PR170MO and Vifa H26bla bla horn tweeter from Madisound in a 5 cubic foot BR tuned to 35hz.
The bad news is that parts costs would be about $1100.00.
I use the audax and vifa wiht a Cerwin Vega 15 now and really like the combo. I get home hifi sound with efficiency and punch.
Cerwin Vega 15" three ways sell for next to nothing locally. They get a bad rap because they have poor crossovers and poor driver integration leaving them to sound hard, obnoxious and rought. Simply adding Lpads to the mids and highs is an improvement but they need propery designed crossovers too. They are a good place to start if you can't build boxes or aford 1100.00.
The next step would be horn loading but that's for another day.